| Posted: Wed Jan 27th, 2010 11:52 am |
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Comanche
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That section was created to prevent city or town police from running radar (or setting up a radar trap) outside their jurisdictions.......and did you notice that it only referred to speed enforcement equipment (not any and all traffic laws or as you stated "any traffic functions")...............the reference to city charter is simple......most cities or towns have sections in their charters (that were approved by the state legislature) to extend their jurisdictions 1 mile beyond their corporate limits. The thought process behind this was that the one mile buffer are areas that can directly encroach and cause effect on the city or town so the towns or cities requested of the legislature that they have jurisdiciton over these areas....The legislature granted these in most cases.
Comanche
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| Posted: Tue Jan 26th, 2010 01:44 pm |
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usetolikewyom
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Comanche. Look at Title 21; Section 701; Sub-section e. That is the statue restricting municipal officers using enforcement outside their jurisdiction unless governed by town charter.
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| Posted: Mon Jan 25th, 2010 11:04 pm |
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Comanche
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No you said they have no jurisdiction beyond the town limits unless their charter gives it to them which is totally incorrect.....infact it is just plain wrong period.
You really just don't comprehend this whole issue. You are correct State Police have jurisdiction throughout the state in any town or city but this jurisdiction is only for Title 21 which is only the motor vehicle code.......if a homocide happens in Dover or Wilmington or any other city or town that has a police department then the Trooper that witnesses the homocide can arrest the person.....just like a city cop in another jurisdiction........but then the State Police must turn the person over to the City or Town Police who's jurisdiction it falls under which will conduct the investigation, obtain warrants for the person and present them to the court. (unless they ask for assistance from the State Police.....sound familiar)
The state police primary duty is enforcement of all traffic laws .....weight, speed and operation of motor vehicles. See Title 11 Crimes and Criminal Procedure below
§ 8301. Appointment and classification; primary duty.
The Department of Safety and Homeland Security, hereinafter in this chapter referred to as "Department," may appoint police officers whose primary duty shall be to compel the enforcement of all laws relating to the weight, speed and operation of vehicles on the public highways of the State. They shall be officially known and referred to as State Police. The Department may classify such State Police according to such rank as the Department determines, and according to the duties assigned to them from time to time by the Department. The Superintendent of the State Police shall hold the rank of Colonel and shall be so classified by the Department. There may not be less than 660 authorized police officers. Calculations for determining the number of such positions shall include any appropriated (ASF) and nonappropriated (NSF) special funded positions.
§ 8302. Powers and duties of State Police; local police officers assisting State Police.
(a) State Police shall have police powers similar to those of constables and other police officers, and shall be conservators of the peace throughout the State, and they shall suppress all acts of violence, and enforce all laws relating to the safety of persons and property. The State Police shall be the primary law-enforcement agency within the State. The State Police shall have exclusive jurisdiction, excluding the incorporated limits of any municipality maintaining an established police department, for police investigations of the following:
(1) Homicide;
(2) Suicide;
(3) All other deaths requiring medical examiner's investigation;
(4) Kidnapping;
(5) Rape and unlawful sexual intercourse; and
(6) All attempts thereof.
So you see they would have to turn the defendant over to the local jurisdiction for warrants, presenting to the court and prosecuting the case. This has long been the statuatory law of the State of Delaware and the way it is actually done........been there done that.....
By the way still waiting for ("To give another example, there is a state law that states a town police officer can't perform traffic functions outside the towns boundaries unless the towns charter grants it. ") the answer that you were looking for??????
I have given you the facts and the reference material to prove these points....if you still disagree then that is your choice but I know the reality of this and most people who read the material will understand.
Commanche
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| Posted: Mon Jan 25th, 2010 07:55 pm |
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usetolikewyom
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Thus you have proved the point I've been trying to make. Municipal Police Officers may have some jurisdiction beyond the limits of the town they are employed but it is limited to particular situations unlike a State Trooper who have 24-7 jurisdiction in any town throughout the entire state without limitations. They do not need the assistance of the agency of jurisdiction. That definitely makes Municipal Officers much different then the State Troopers. Again I thank you for the comments and debate. I to must move on.
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| Posted: Mon Jan 25th, 2010 11:55 am |
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Comanche
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Obviously you dont understand the concept.........it is only for felony or crimes of violence where serious physical injury may occur........once arrested whoever's jurisdiction it is will actually take over and process and present the person.
The whole concept is that a police officer is a peace officer of the entire state and he has the authority to "stop" certain situatons from becoming more dangerous for the citizens of this state.
enjoyed the conversation but I must move on.
comanche
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| Posted: Sun Jan 24th, 2010 12:37 pm |
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usetolikewyom
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Is there really such a place. If there is it must be a secret.
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| Posted: Sat Jan 23rd, 2010 11:41 pm |
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Playing the Game
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Or, you can get a life and just ignore it. If that doesn't work, move someplace where the people are nicer.
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| Posted: Sat Jan 23rd, 2010 07:42 pm |
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usetolikewyom
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Hey Comanche I appreciate your explanation. It has been good discussing this with you and you have helped me a lot. But just to make sure I totally understand. Lets say I'm a Camden Police Officer and I live in Clayton. It is a Saturday and I not working and have put together a barbecue in the back yard and invited friends and family. My neighbor next door is having a party and he is intoxicated and being rather rude by yelling out profanities that are offensive to my wife, children, family members, and my friends. I have went to this person and told him several times to stop and that I didn't appreciate his language and it is offensive especially to the children. Because he has ignored my requests I can arrest this individual, take him to Court 8 in Smyrna, and arraign him on the charge.
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| Posted: Wed Jan 20th, 2010 08:52 pm |
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Comanche
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Obviously you are not well versed in the law in Delaware. The State of Delaware gives police their powers not the towns or municipalities. You are right that their main area of responsibility is in their municipal or town jurisdiction however like I said if an officer were to witness a crime in progress outside of his town such as a person being assaulted and that officer did nothing, and that person was seriously injured or killed for example that officer would be liable to the state of Delaware and the citizens family for not taking action. In Delaware all police officers derive their police powers by statutory law granted by the state of Delaware and are bound by the state rules as to how those powers are exercised. They not only have a right but a responsibility to take action in this type of circumstance.
Municipal officers do not react to traffic crimes they witness on their way to or from work because the state gives them no power to do so. The state gave them the power and responsibility to act on serious criminal law outside their normal jurisdiction and the town or municipality cannot take this away.
Every citizen in every town, municipality, housing area or anywhere else in the state of delaware are bound by the laws of the state. The town can make up ordiances to address areas that Title 11 has not covered (such as you must mow your grass) if they wish but all citizens of this state are bound by Title 11 no matter where they live. Town ordinances do not and cannot supercede state law.
If you question this just write a letter to the Attorney General of the state of Delaware and maybe he can explain this to you. Sometime a little bit of knowledge is just enough to make someone dangerous.
Again there is a huge difference between Title 11 Crimes and Criminal Procedure and Title 21 Motor Vehicles. You have not provided the section you said you were looking for however I doubt you will find it in Title 21 but you should read section 701 Chapter 7 of Title 21 you may be confused about what it says and again this is Motor Vehicle laws and not criminal law.
Thanks for the input "fiveo".......I am a retired police officer from a city in delaware and have been involved in similar incidents where the municipal officer wrote the summons......with the troops ok.......usually they want to issue.......but sometimes on serious situations where they have no one to respond......
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| Posted: Tue Jan 19th, 2010 01:45 am |
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| Posted: Tue Jan 19th, 2010 12:15 am |
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fiveo
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comanche- you are 100% correct, usedtolikewyo is correct as well. A municipal police officer has every power as any other police officer in this state except when it comes to traffic. A local Police Officer can not run radar or enforce traffic laws not in his town. The only thing a mun Police Offcier can do is notify that town or agency he he feels it nec to do and have that violator stopped. That agency has discretion of they want to come out and obtain a statment and issue a summons. Ive seen and been involved in for example DUIs some agencies will let that officer take the dui even if it is out of their limits. That would be Title 21.... However a sworn and fully trained Police Officer in DE can act on any crime that is in his presence. In some cases in is an obligation to act.... criminal code title 11....... Im not gonna write everything about it because comanche already sited the code that allows officers to act and their powers and so forth.....
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| Posted: Sat Jan 16th, 2010 06:11 pm |
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usetolikewyom
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Comanche Regarding your comment, many municipalities in Delaware do restrict their officers to jurisdictional boundaries due to liability issues. Many towns don't even want their officers moonlighting for other agencies. The reason is that if the officer were to be injured the town would be short an officer and lose police coverage for the residents. So unlike State Troopers that can get up in the morning and decide to run radar in a certain area of Kent County for example, municipal officers can't make that decision. They can only react to a traffic violation of crime they may see on their way to and from work. They can't just pull on the shoulder of a roadway and run radar, watch stop sign intersections, etc.. States make laws that reflect the social norms of the citizens. Although some of the laws are fashioned after federal laws, most are not. Just as some town ordinances are fashioned after state laws, there are many that are not. If a town could afford to hire a judge to oversee an Aldermans Court, a town can adopt the traffic and criminal laws the chose or that are the most important to the social norms of the residents as ordinances. All fines would then be paid to the town and not the state. They are not be required to incorporate every state law. So in that case scenario, the town ordinance would supersede state law. If town ordinances did not supersede state law and state law did not supersede federal law they we would find ourselves with universal law created by the federal government and incorporated by the state and town governments. That is why laws are so very different from one state to. What may be a felony in Delaware may only be a misdemeanor in Ohio or a simple violation in Arizona. I still looking for the Title and Section of that traffic law.
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| Posted: Fri Jan 15th, 2010 12:04 am |
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usetolikewyom
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Hey Comanche I leaving to go out of state for a few days. I will search for the Title and section, thinking it 21 but not certain. I will also make comment to your statements when I get back. Thanks for the debate.
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| Posted: Wed Jan 13th, 2010 01:01 pm |
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Comanche
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I think you have it backwards........Federal law says you must have probable cause to stop a citizen..........state law cannot say you can stop a citizen for anything less than probable cause..........this is a technical issue because you are correct in that a subordinate government or entity sometimes can make this law more restrictive but not less restrictive .......but there are some inherent police actions and powers granted by law that police officers are obligated to do by their oath of office even if their town charter does not allow it.......you are correct that officers can be asked by any other police agency to assit them but it does not have to be because no other office is available however if an office witnesses a felony outside his employers jurisdiction he not only has a right, he has a duty and responsibility to act with police powers........the town charter always reference to perform these functions within the jurisdiction of the town because the town cannot grant this authority outside the town (except for the 1 mile outside the town if they include in charter which an old court ruling lets them do because the bordering 1mile can affect the town)......state law does that and controls that. I disagree with you about what the officer follows.....he follows the town charter, employee handbook and state law which he is required to do.
Again you are correct with the traffic violations.....there is a big difference between Title 21 (motor vehicle code) and Title 11 (Criminal Code)......and the state realized this and that is why they changed from common law and made it statutory......and separated these things. Can you give me a Title and section # on the law that states town officers cannot perform traffic functions outside the town unless the charter grants it?
I'm not trying to be argumentative with you and maybe we can both learn something from each other.......I do know that everything about police powers, arrest powers, jurisdiction etc....is granted by state law and that this was all codified by the state when the common law became statuatory.....one of the main reasons this was constructed this was was to remove the politics and political influence or pressure from law enforcement.........I.E. all police in Delaware must have a certification mandated from the Council on Police Training.....before this every little town was just hiring anyone, giving them a badge and a gun and sending them out to be police.....
Anyway the main point of this discussion was actually that I believe that police presence (vehicles) etc......are a great deterent to crime and criminals and I believe that there should be as many police vehicles out and about as possible.......if a criminal stops because he sees a police vehicle near where he is about to do a burglary or commit a theft.....no matter where the police vehicle is from......it does a great service to all the citizens of Delaware.....and is worth the money spent...
Thanks
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| Posted: Tue Jan 12th, 2010 02:00 pm |
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usetolikewyom
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Hey Comanche that is true what state law says. However, most police officers employed by a municipality are governed by town ordinances and town charter which super-cedes state law just as state law super-cedes federal law. Except in situations where a Wyoming Officer was dispatched to Camden or a Camden Officer was dispatched to Wyoming due to no available officer or when a municipal officer witnesses a person commit what they believe to be a felony crime they can act outside their jurisdiction. But if they witnessed a traffic violation the in another jurisdiction they would notify the agency of jurisdiction for consent to stop the violator they just can't stop in other jurisdiction unless the violation posed a threat of injury. If you look up Wyoming's Town Charter under Police Officer you will see that repeatedly it is stated the officer may perform functions within the town limits or within the town jurisdiction. No where does it say the police officer may perform functions anywhere within the State of Delaware. The charter does give a couple of situations where the police officer may go outside the town limits but they are limited. Most municipal departments even have the jurisdiction as a section in the employee handbook. So doesn't matter what is written in state law if the town charter restricts an officer to the limits of the town that's what the officer follows. To give another example, there is a state law that states a town police officer can't perform traffic functions outside the towns boundaries unless the towns charter grants it. Wyoming's charter give their officers permission to operate one miles outside the jurisdictional boundaries of the town. That to is under Police Officer in the Wyoming Town Charter. Technically, that does make municipal police officers different then State Troopers. So I could say the same to you about getting your facts straight before speaking, but I would rather say thanks for the constructive point of view that is what this site is for. Last edited on Tue Jan 12th, 2010 02:04 pm by usetolikewyom
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| Posted: Mon Jan 11th, 2010 11:48 am |
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Comanche
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You should do your research before you speak.....the Town Charter has nothing to do with police powers, they are controlled by State Law( this was changed many years ago to remove the politics with Police powers) and any sworn police Officer of the state of Delaware (must have a certificate from the council on police training) has the authority(police powers) to arrest anywhere in the state for such things as 1. To arrest someone who the officer knows there is a warrant on file for, 2. For any crime of violence or to prevent someone from being inujured, ie someone being assaulted, 3. For any Felony level crime that is being committed in the officers presence and several others....... see below
This was always common law but made statuatory law many years ago by our state legislature see,
§ 1911. Police officers; statewide authority.
(a) For purposes of this section "police officer" means any police officer holding current certification by the Council on Police Training as provided by Chapter 84 of this title and who is:
(1) A member of the Delaware State Police;
(2) A member of the New Castle County Police;
(3) A member of the police department, bureau or force of any incorporated city or town;
(4) A member of the Delaware River and Bay Authority Police;
(5) A member of the Capitol Police;
(6) A member of the University of Delaware Police;
(7) A law enforcement officer of the Department of Natural Resources and Environmental Control;
(8) An agent of the State Division of Alcohol and Tobacco Enforcement;
(9) An officer or agent of the State Office of Narcotics and Dangerous Drugs;
(10) A state detective or special investigator of the Department of Justice; or
(11) Delaware State University Police.
(b) A police officer may arrest without a warrant at any location within the State any person the officer has reasonable grounds to believe is committing or attempting to commit a felony in the officer's presence.
(c) An on duty police officer may arrest upon view and without a warrant at any location within the State any person when probable cause exists to believe that the person is committing or attempting to commit any crime which creates a substantial risk of death or serious physical injury to another person or which constitutes a violation of § 4177 of Title 21.
(d) An "on duty" police officer may arrest at any location in the State any person for any offense committed within the jurisdiction of the officer's employing agency and for whose arrest a warrant has been issued. The "on duty" police officer shall, where acting outside of the officer's jurisdiction, take reasonable measures to notify the primary jurisdictional police agency of the intended time and place of the execution of the arrest warrant.
(e) A police officer may render assistance to another police officer at any location within the State when the officer reasonably believes that the police officer to be assisted is lawfully performing that officer's duty and that death or injury will occur to that police officer if assistance is not provided.
(f) When police officers who are certified by the Delaware Council on Police Training are dispatched by a Public Safety Answering Point outside of their respective jurisdiction as conservators of the peace, those officers shall be considered to be acting as officers of the dispatching agency and have the powers of arrest thereof.
(g) A police officer acting under the authority of this section shall be considered to be acting within the scope of employment.
(h) This section shall not serve to limit the authority of members of the Delaware State Police or other police officers as provided for elsewhere in this title or by other authority.
So you see there is really no difference between the State Police and any other Police Officer in the state of Delaware.......they are all POLICE and sworn to Detect and Prevent Crime......
Comanche
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| Posted: Mon Jan 11th, 2010 11:35 am |
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17th Post |
listen up
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Comanche wrote: Did you know that all the State Police have take home dedicated vehicles. The reasoning for this is that it promotes a larger police presence.......perps see police vehicles everywhere and it makes them think twice about doing something......also it enables them to go in service as soon as they are in their vehicles so they can respond to an incident directly instead of having to go to the troop, get a vehicle and respons to the incident. There are other reasons also.....My vote is to let them have the take home vehicles so there is as much of a police presence as possible.......have you ever been driving down the road and all of a sudden see a police vehicle in the distance and you immediately slow down to the speed limit and then as you reach the police vehicle see it is emply, just parked........same goes for criminals....
I just do the speed limit.
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Two Cents
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usetolikewyom wrote: ... I think while the economy is as bad as it is, temporarily asking municipal officers to use their personal cars is not unreasonable and would save the towns money.
Why only while the economy is bad and why only temporarily? It's OK to squander taxpayer's money when it is more readily available?
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usetolikewyom
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Hey Comanche that is true but there is quite a difference between State Troopers and Municipal Officers. State Troopers have state wide jurisdiction 24-7. They have police powers anywhere in the state and can make arrests accordingly. Municipal Officer only have police powers 24-7 within the jurisdiction of the town they work. If they live outside the town they work, once they leave the jurisdiction of the town they have no police powers and no authority. If they see a crime in progress their response is to contact the agency of jurisdiction or the State Police for a response, and relay information about the crime. This is stated in the charter of most municipalities. So if their authority is restricted to the boundaries of a town, shouldn't the patrol vehicles also? They serve no other purpose outside the limits of a town except to provide the officers convenient transportation at the tax payers expense and wouldn't we all love to have that luxary? I know I would. In no way am I suggesting that officers be cut, but I think while the economy is as bad as it is, temporarily asking municipal officers to use their personal cars is not unreasonable and would save the towns money.
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Comanche
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Did you know that all the State Police have take home dedicated vehicles. The reasoning for this is that it promotes a larger police presence.......perps see police vehicles everywhere and it makes them think twice about doing something......also it enables them to go in service as soon as they are in their vehicles so they can respond to an incident directly instead of having to go to the troop, get a vehicle and respons to the incident. There are other reasons also.....My vote is to let them have the take home vehicles so there is as much of a police presence as possible.......have you ever been driving down the road and all of a sudden see a police vehicle in the distance and you immediately slow down to the speed limit and then as you reach the police vehicle see it is emply, just parked........same goes for criminals....
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usetolikewyom
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Tidesout7 I did not say cut police officers, I suggested reducing patrol vehicles. As a bloggers suggested in the Wyoming forum, the various shifts can share cars and the administrative personnel can drive thier own vehicles. If it came to the point that marshal laws was declared, it would be the Governor's decision and more than likely he would call in the National Guard and all agencies that have state wide jurisdiction State Police, Capitol Police, DNREC) to handle such an event. Heaven forbid a county or municipal department were to be involved in such a disaster and worked better then the state agencies. So got to keep them out of the spot light so state agencies get the glory. If marshal laws was declared, most law-enforcement officials would probably be confined to their respective buildings where they would eat and sleep until the threat is eliminated. And where have you been for the past year? Democrats are in office and as you stated they are spending like the money is growing on money trees. Maybe Washington has developed some kind of Hybrid tree that does just that and not told the American people. Yeah that got to be it, they have money trees growing on the White House lawn. Or could be they growing money trees at Area 51 and send out UFO's to deter the public from noticing them harvesting the money. No matter which, apparently the money trees been pick clean and now Washington was to pick the tax payers wallets as they did the money trees, CLEAN.
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tidesout7
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Police are the LAST item to cut..what if things get worse, and marshal-law is ever declared? So keep the police. Don't worry about a few cars coming/going.
Worry about a democrat getting in office .. THEN YOU WILL SEE SPENDING!
Currently life is a Sodom and Gohmora out there, police are needed.
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Jody.Sweeney
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usetolikewyom, 2010 Election
Saturday, February 27, 2010,
12-8 p.m.
Available Seats:
Position Current Seat Holder Term
Mayor Robert A. Mooney 2 yr.
Council Richard Snyder 3 yr.
Written Notice of Candidacy must be
filed in person at Town Hall prior to the
close of business on Feb. 5, 2010. The
Municipal Complex will be open until 8
p.m. on Jan. 20, 2010 for candidates to
file.
Anyone wishing to register may do so at
the Kent County Department of
Elections located at 100 Enterprise
Place, Suite 5, Dover, DE 19901. Last
day for voter registration will be Feb. 8,
2010. Please note the Town Hall does
register voters.
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NJVillasOutsider
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Wow,first the snow storm,and the terrible clean-up,now this story,this is starting to sound just like Cape May County,NJ.Please fix your problems before I move to your nice town,because I love visiting you guys.
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| Posted: Thu Dec 31st, 2009 05:27 pm |
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usetolikewyom
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Hello fellow Camden residents hope Christmas was good even with the financial state of the country. Hope all have a enjoyable New Year. You may not agree with me but I feel some comment needs to be made. I use to live in Wyoming and liked it until I saw no interest in growing and just wanting to be a meager town. That pushed me to move to Camden where things were happening and the town was growing. Many much needed businesses were brought to the area and saved having to travel to Dover for essential needs. I was pretty content until the leadership of the town became to greedy about the growth and went crazy building a structure so big when one half the size would have been sufficient to house both Town Hall and The Police Department and would have been a less costly endeavor. Then came the financial crunch of 2009 and I, like I'm sure many of you, had to really put my unnecessary spending in check in order to survive this recession. The real funny thing for me though is that while we the tax payer, the back bone of this country and this state were watching our spending. The federal continued to spend on. I do give State Government credit for making some cuts, but feel more sacrifices could have been made. But what about our town government? What cuts or sacrifices have they made. I can't believe I'm saying this, but maybe Mayor Mooney could take a lesson from Mayor Marasco in Wyoming. He thought about cost cutting and easing the town expenses but eliminating the take home cars of the police force. A gutsy thing to do, but at least he had the town budget and tax payers in mind. Why can't Camden be just as gutsy. Do all of the administrative staff really need a car provide to them just to go back and forth to work. Most do not perform routine patrol functions, but rather sit behind a desk. It would be different if all were patrolling daily and generating revenue for the department, but they are actually generating expenses. The shifts use to be 12 hours and there is normally 2 officers per shift. That means 4 cars and 4 officers cover a 24 hour period. Factor in break downs and routine service 3 spare vehicles would probably be needed. That is a reduction from10 or 11 patrol vehicles to 7 and 24 hour coverage would still be obtainable including officer rotation. This doesn't have to be a long term situation, but could be a practical temporary solution until the economy gets strong again. For the next year the town and tax payers would save expenses on 4 or 5 administrative vehicles and 10 or 11 patrol vehicles. That savings could be applied to the cost of the Town Hall and Police Department structure. I just takes Mayor Mooney being gusty in this bad economy. I believe this is a matter worth discussing at the next town hall meeting. If you agree I encourage all to attend and let your voice be heard. If you disagree I encourage the same.
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