| Posted: Mon Feb 8th, 2010 07:35 pm |
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PeterGriffin
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It's funny to read some of this back and forth especially from people who haven't spent any time in a classroom over any part of the last 30 years like me.
First, there has been a definate change in culture. Parents today are less likely to be involved like they used to. I would say in my first 15-20 years you could get a parent, have a conversation with a parent and they would discipline their kid and you would see change. In my last few years, getting a parent (this is high school age mind you) was like a holy miracle.
Second, kids have become more apathetic. They don't care about theirs dreams as much nor do they think they have to work HARD to achieve them. They believe now a days things will just fall in their lap.Theyll all be famous music stars or athletes or actors or anything without hard work. That is partof the discipline issue.
Third, schools have cared less about discipline and more about stupid tests that don't prove anything. That makes the kids care even less.
So that is it in a nutshell. Frankly facts are, dropouts are not caused by the system, they are the student's own choice. Bad behavior is not a problem for the school to deal with other than counseling or reducing class sizes or segregating bad kids, which seems so un-PC these days.
Blaming unions is so funny. They have no say in this like you think. 90% of the time it is not the teacher who has blame, when they have to spend all their time TRYING to teach.
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| Posted: Sun Jan 31st, 2010 05:30 pm |
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2nd Post |
America in trouble
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Uh. . .having a problem getting my "arms around that one" DD. On the other hand, will a mom od dad cotten up to having a tutor come into their home? Do the little freaks get free transport to their tutor's residence?
The whole dang system is cock-a-mammy, if that's the case.
The parents of children who don't misbehave at school also have as case when their child's classroom is constantly in a state of disruption because of one or more who act up and nothing ever happens to put a stop to it.
Getting the bad ones out of the classroom is most important - in my opinion. If the powers-that-be decide to hire tutors and pay for it out school funds, we'd soon see how long that lasts.
Sooner rather than later, the district would find a place to teach incorrigibles or the stigma would be too much for their parents AND grandparents.
Point being - learning at my school would not be subject to disruption by chronically disruptive children. The school's principal is getting off easy when nothing is done! The same little cretins go from grade to grade causing mischief.
It'd be quite interesting to know what was accomplished at the meeting (maybe even a semminar) on "Discipline at School" and on school buses I'd imagine. As a parent, I once had to ride my son's bus as the Parent Bus Monitor. We took turns riding the bus.
Nothing happened on the days I rode it.
Maybe a parent visits their child's classroom each day to observe the teacher-student communication tone. Something! Anything to re-establish discipline at school when it has broken down.
I suggest a week's remedial traininng in classroom proper decorum for disruptive students. Bring in a law officer to talk about what it's like being in jail. Bring in a former disruptive student to talk about the benefit of learning during their life at school and afterwards. A freshman from DSU would be impressive as a guest speaker.
I would also ask police cadets to give a talk on keeping straight so they could qualify for the State Police Academy. Maybe even a para-medic or a new volunteer fireman and even a military recruiter - anybody with a success story to tell.
You could call it "two-track" or "dual track" education. It matters not what you call it as long as it benefits students and their class and the teachers. If you are stuck with bad behavior students at school, give it a try at showing them what good behavior can do for them.
I still contend that the classroom is not the place for confrontations or displays of disrespect towards the teacher by a student.
Kick'um out of class and send them home for awhile before entering them in a classroom reorientation on good behavior and the benefits of same.
DO NOT just let them return directly to their regular classroom. The suspended student just gets to show-off and talk about watching cartoons on TV while pigging-out at home.
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| Posted: Sun Jan 31st, 2010 12:17 am |
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Playing the Game
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Shame on you, the NEA and DSEA has your name and number and they wil be contacting you soon. You don't seem to understand that if the students become compliant they will have nothing to complain about.
America in trouble wrote:
Send the incorrigibles home! School is NOT for raising children, it's for educating them! It's not that complicated is it? The parents or guardians will get the message sooner or later - your kid will not be allowed in school if he/she is disruptive to others learning and teachers teaching. Did I miss something!
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| Posted: Sun Jan 31st, 2010 12:12 am |
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dover-diva
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America in trouble wrote: Send the incorrigibles home! School is NOT for raising children, it's for educating them! It's not that complicated is it? The parents or guardians will get the message sooner or later - your kid will not be allowed in school if he/she is disruptive to others learning and teachers teaching. Did I miss something!
You miss the "fact" that if the little "monster" (not my first word- but I am really trying to be nice), the school MUST provide an education via a tutor (which costs are 3+ times as much as a classroom teacher), to continue the education to him/her, in the home.
Why must the taxpayer be FORCED to pay this extortion??? Once upon a time- just the 'thought" of being sent to the principal's office put the fear of GOD into a student.Now it is a joke, and the taxpayer pays. Not the parent, but the district.
The whole concept MUST be changed. The younger child has the harshest punishment, and the older child gets away with (literally) murder.
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| Posted: Sat Jan 30th, 2010 03:34 pm |
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America in trouble
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Send the incorrigibles home! School is NOT for raising children, it's for educating them! It's not that complicated is it? The parents or guardians will get the message sooner or later - your kid will not be allowed in school if he/she is disruptive to others learning and teachers teaching. Did I miss something!
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| Posted: Thu Jan 28th, 2010 08:07 pm |
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Lavitakus
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Zymergy wrote: Hartlyboy wrote: Sounds like there was a lot of talk about 'common proceedures' and common definitions' but nothing about common sense such as when a 7 year old Cub Scout brings his camping kit to school to eat his pudding and gets bounced because it has a [gasp] butter knife in the kit. They made some progress about not getting everyones shorts in a knot and handing out police records for minor stuff but they still haven't been able to come away from the PC version of 'weapons offenses'.
You hit that nail on the head. When a small child is treated like a criminal and expelled for bringing a knife in to cut a birthday cake, but a teenager is coddled after hitting or even threatening a teacher or another student, or sexually assaulting another student the system has completely failed.
Yep......
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| Posted: Thu Jan 28th, 2010 06:16 pm |
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Zymergy
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Hartlyboy wrote: Sounds like there was a lot of talk about 'common proceedures' and common definitions' but nothing about common sense such as when a 7 year old Cub Scout brings his camping kit to school to eat his pudding and gets bounced because it has a [gasp] butter knife in the kit. They made some progress about not getting everyones shorts in a knot and handing out police records for minor stuff but they still haven't been able to come away from the PC version of 'weapons offenses'.
You hit that nail on the head. When a small child is treated like a criminal and expelled for bringing a knife in to cut a birthday cake, but a teenager is coddled after hitting or even threatening a teacher or another student, or sexually assaulting another student the system has completely failed.
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| Posted: Thu Jan 28th, 2010 03:19 pm |
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dover-diva
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LAWYERS!!! Who said we must "kill" them?? If the ACLU was not allowed to practice, using public taxpayer funds, to defile our constitution, and our way of life, we would be better off.
Next the UNIONS must be dismantled. At some point in history, they served a purpose. They do not now.
Educators ,don't educate. Kids are bringing themselves up, while mom and dad (which is rapidly becoming a non-entitiy) are our doing jobs to pay the bloated fees of government.
The government is at fault also, with this movement tpwards a nanny state. Them crazy 60's Free love, anti-disestablishmentarinism, hippies.
Last edited on Thu Jan 28th, 2010 04:29 pm by dover-diva
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| Posted: Thu Jan 28th, 2010 01:45 pm |
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America in trouble
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An adult with a modicum of common sense, for instance the school's principal, might know intent from coincidence. The so-called "Zero tolerance" is nothing more than a cop-out for the principal to make a decision - like confiscating the "weapon" and calling the parents. It's all so silly, but in a politically correct environment as we now have, the name of the game is "CYA."
I recall being in my classroom and the teacher asked if anyone had a pocket knife she could use. Not just one was produced and no one thought anything of it, except that some boy was lucky enough to loan his knife to the teacher. We were about ten then and boys got their first real pocket knife for Christmas! All I heard for a week after I got mine was "Don't cut yourself with that knife." I usually lost my knife before using it as a weapon.
Wimpy school district superintendents decide that to bring anything to school sharper than a football is a capital offense. They let discipline in classrooms become out of control when it shouldn't even be a problem. Do really bad things in class and you go home to your guardians - end of story.
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| Posted: Wed Jan 27th, 2010 07:38 pm |
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Hartlyboy
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Sounds like there was a lot of talk about 'common proceedures' and common definitions' but nothing about common sense such as when a 7 year old Cub Scout brings his camping kit to school to eat his pudding and gets bounced because it has a [gasp] butter knife in the kit. They made some progress about not getting everyones shorts in a knot and handing out police records for minor stuff but they still haven't been able to come away from the PC version of 'weapons offenses'.
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| Posted: Wed Jan 27th, 2010 03:57 pm |
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America in trouble
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Unless and until the public schools system include social behavior in and out of classrooms as a teaching goal with material to teach benefits of good behavior, the problem of maintaining discipline among students will continue. Until that day comes, the only answer is to send the offenders home!
The school principal's office is responsible to get in touch with the parents (or parent) to let them know their child is being sent home for misbehaving in class. This should have been covered with all parents at the beginning of the school year.
It's no more complicated than that. One visit to see the principal about bad behavior in their classroom (cursing, disrespecting a teacher, fighting or threatening another student, tardinewss to class, distruction of property, bullying, disruption of class studies, being uncooperative, constantly talking out of turn after being warned, throwing things, shifting from their assigned seat without permission, and not following the their teacher's instructions) and it's home the offending student goes!
It's the very same stuff we all faced being sent home for doing in class at school. You act-up and you will be doing your act at home! Discipline is taught by parents as their children grow up. If there is a problem at school, send the child home for remedial training. Last edited on Wed Jan 27th, 2010 04:01 pm by America in trouble
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| Posted: Wed Jan 27th, 2010 03:19 pm |
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tspong
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What do you think?
From the Delaware State News:
Del. school discipline panel issues final report
Bills could reach House this week
By Jamie-Leigh Bissett
Delaware State News
DOVER — The state’s School Discipline Task Force released its final report on Tuesday and will introduce various pieces of legislation to the state House of Representatives as early as this week for approval.
"Ultimately the task force looked at what is best for the kids and what the most appropriate interventions would be in order to maintain a safe and positive environment for students and employees," said task force co-chair Rep. Darryl M. Scott, D-Dover. "I’m very optimistic that these recommendations will have a positive impact for not only the kids, but those who serve them."
The task force and its recommendations were broken down into three subcommittees, including Legislative Initiatives, School Climate and Student Codes of Conduct, Policy and Procedure and Alternatives.
Led by Deputy Attorney General Patricia Dailey Lewis, the legislative subcommittee’s major recommendation, and the first one that will be introduced to the House for discussion, was to increase the minimum age of an alleged offender that requires a report from 9 years old to 12.
Under current law, school officials have to report to police and, in certain instances, initiate criminal prosecution of specific misdemeanor offenses, such as third-degree assault and offensive touching, committed by students over 9.
Under the draft legislation, school officials still would be required to file a written report of the incident with the superintendent, who in turn must file a written report with the Department of Education.
Other recommendations by this committee included:
• Mandatory reporting when the victim is a school employee;
• Rewriting the references to suspensions based on probable-cause findings to include — among other things — that the school must find that the safety of the students, faculty and staff are impaired by having the offender present in the school;
• Creating a new section of the Delaware Code to deal with implementing a three-step process prior to invoking criminal violation reporting, except for sex crimes and weapons offenses. The three steps would be a written warning, school mediation, and finally, arrest. This process would replace immediate arrest for misdemeanors, except any sex crime or weapons offenses.
"The subcommittee’s goal was to make sure that serious crimes are given their appropriate attention but those situations that should not enter the justice system don’t," Ms. Dailey Lewis said. "In many cases, by the time an unclassified misdemeanor reaches court, people don’t want to participate, the kids involved aren’t fighting any more, and we have used a lot of state and school resources.
"There are better ways to handle some situations than to require law enforcement involvement."
The School Climate and Student Codes of Conduct, Policy and Procedure subcommittee, chaired by state Deputy Secretary of Education Daniel E. Cruce, reviewed legal issues stemming from the school discipline system. The group recommended calling on the Department of Education to establish:
• Common legal definitions of student offenses that lead to alternative placement or expulsion;
• Common due-process procedures for alternative-placement meetings and expulsion hearings;
• Common procedures for how the Attorney General’s office handles reports;
• Requiring DOE and the Department of Safety and Homeland Security to draft a memorandum of understanding detailing minimum responsibility requirements of school resource officers.
"We want school districts and charter schools to be able to maintain local autonomy, but we also must guarantee consistency with policies and procedures," Mr. Cruce said. "The subcommittee worked to provide a framework for districts and charters to use to ensure a consistent process in all schools throughout the state."
The alternative subcommittee focused on developing options for suspending or expelling students. Red Clay School District Superintendent Dr. Merv Daugherty, who chaired the subcommittee, said that keeping students in school is a critical goal and offered the following recommendations for school districts:
• Develop a discipline plan for reducing discipline referrals and suspensions, as well as defining intermediate interventions for students;
• Implement professional development training for teachers and school staff concerning best practices in classroom management and instructional practices;
• Review alternative placement and in-school-suspension programs;
• Define student resource officer responsibilities and develop guidelines in their assigned schools.
"We developed a discipline plan in our school district, which has worked really well," Dr. Daugherty said. "It’s also important to have schools look at their alternative placement and suspension data and see how they are handed out and determine if they are really necessary.
"This report is the starting point to improving how we address discipline with students. I am looking forward to putting these recommendations into practice."
Rep. Scott said he was impressed with how well each participant, many coming from groups who historically disagree on issues, worked together.
"Stakeholders from across the state, including government officials, the community, schools districts and parents, came together to make this happen. I believe the recommendations are being made by people who are the experts, who live with these issues on a day-to-day basis," he said.
"Even those who traditionally have opposing views, such as the Attorney General’s Office, public defenders and the ACLU, put recommendations together that everyone believes will have a positive impact. Rep. (Michael A.) Barbieri (D-Newark) and I are extremely grateful to those who participated for their time and effort, and now it’s time to implement the changes that were recommended."
Created by House Resolution 22 in May, the task force was charged with reviewing a 17-year-old disciplinary system that mandated reporting of all in-school incidents and set uniform punishments for infractions, then issuing recommendations to more fairly dispense justice without negatively impacting the school environment.
The task force met four times to review existing laws, evaluate the impact the resulting school discipline policies had on the individuals and the schools, and identify alternatives.
Rep. Barbieri said the task force’s recommendations would help place discretion regarding school discipline back into the hands of local district officials while establishing basic procedures to follow while using their expertise.
"The task force believes that placing the trust back into these officials’ hands would better facilitate a more positive and productive school environment," the report said.
"We hire people because we respect and trust their decision-making and training. We should give them the tools they need to do their job," Rep. Barbieri added.
Staff writer Jamie-Leigh Bissett can be reached at 741-8250 or jlhughes@newszap.com.
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America in trouble
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Keeping on-subject, the answer to problems with discipline in our schools is so obvious as to be a trip hazard for school administrators. It is school uniforms! You can see it in the US military that conduct unbecoming to the "uniform" is verbotten! When others wear their uniform proudly there is a sense of belonging and being proud to wear it.
School students would not be "militarized" but wearing the unique uniform of their school would lessen the admiration for acting uncivil in class and those that do would be scorned, not be applauded by their classmates.
Coming to school dressed like "Bozo the clown" and acting up for attention will end. A school uniform would stop the nonsense and prevent ostersizing of a teacher for dismissing a student for bad behavior. Other than installing cameras in each classroom, a school uniform is equally as effective - even better since bad behavior out side the school yard would be noticed and be reported back to the school principle. Uniforms are the answer to discipine problems at school.
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Lavitakus
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Toledo Tom wrote: Just watch as "Global Warming" is further exposed as a fraud, and the true costs of the free ride of the illegal aliens becomes more exposed.
You don't know the half of it, brother.
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USEDUP
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WOW! So right on with a lot of these comments!
The world has definitely started orbiting in an opposite direction,huh??
I work at a school district and see first hand how ridiculous the bureaucracy is !!
Definitely need to shift the weight from administration and "special" (made up) position back to the classroom!!
All I "hear" is it is "All about the kids" from our illustrious leaders....but in reality it is all about "how high can 'I' increase 'my' position and salary?
I watch daily as the ones that are hired specifically to "supervise" the "at risk" children in my district fail miserably to teach them any respect or manners.
I don't know all of the ramifications.....I am sure they are worn down by dealing with situations where their "hands are tied".
I know how I (myself) would like to deal with a few of them.....but, of course, those days are long gone...and a big reason why we have the trouble that we have today!!! And so...now they are debating on "dumbing down" on the disipline even more?? :o(
One step in the right direction might very well be the consolidation of the school districts !! As said before ... let's cut the weight "off the top" ....start funding and giving back some power to those (the teachers in the classrooms) who actually "deal" daily with and "care" about the children.
Because it really is "all about the kids" !! Not the ones stepping all over the children and their mentors to rise to the top of the hill !!!
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Toledo Tom
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LTCDolphin;
Because you irritate someone does not mean that what you offer is any less important than any other post. I've been irritated by a number of posters, yet I continue to read them. Some of them post useful things. And, though I disagree, and much is propaganda, I continue to read in order to determine the thinking of opponents.
Spewers of propaganda take their final refuge in name calling and wishes to "ignore" posters. Just watch as "Global Warming" is further exposed as a fraud, and the true costs of the free ride of the illegal aliens becomes more exposed. Why read their posts? Remember that no one is completely useless, they can always serve splendidly as "bad examples."
Who's truer to American ideals? Those talking freely or those screaming for one to shut up and/or encouraging others to ignore them!
You must not leave the Forum "field." To do so only leaves the social/fascists! These would surely continue to lead the rest of America to its doom!
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Toledo Tom
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LTCDolphin:
Jim Reston was a noted syndicated columnist whose home base was the Old Washington Star, a contemporary of Drew Pearson. Those were the days when Roy Chalk was running cable-electric rail-borne street cars, aka DC Transit, and they had no underground METRO. As well the "press" stood up and were counted as for the people, unlike the corruption of today's press.
Egad, I just dated myself.
As to discipline first, it's a "chicken or egg first" situation. Until the unions are broken you will make NO progress on ANYTHING in public education, including discipline. Prime examples are home schooling and private schools. I could not agree more on the rest of your comment in this.
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ltcdolphin
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Poltergeist wrote: Discipline is a term that should be used at home!! The incentive to do well in school disappears when Mom, Grandmom, Uncle or whomever is on the public dole! These disruptive students inherit the notion that the state owes them an education!!
Another issue is the "free ride" other state agencies are getting by pushing off responsibility to the school: Criminal Justice - come on arrest them and incarcerate! Child Mental Health - Many of these kids are in desperate need of services from this "cloaked" agency! Family Services - Come on man don't dump these kids off at school as a "daytime placement" Mr. Wagner when you look at consolidation of school districts you also need to evaluate the return on investment the state is getting from these other folks!!
well said about the entitlement mentality. but there needs to be strong discipline in schools. teachers should not fear for their welfare when working.
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Poltergeist
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Discipline is a term that should be used at home!! The incentive to do well in school disappears when Mom, Grandmom, Uncle or whomever is on the public dole! These disruptive students inherit the notion that the state owes them an education!!
Another issue is the "free ride" other state agencies are getting by pushing off responsibility to the school: Criminal Justice - come on arrest them and incarcerate! Child Mental Health - Many of these kids are in desperate need of services from this "cloaked" agency! Family Services - Come on man don't dump these kids off at school as a "daytime placement" Mr. Wagner when you look at consolidation of school districts you also need to evaluate the return on investment the state is getting from these other folks!!
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ltcdolphin
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Toledo Tom wrote: In remembrance of Jim Reston, the discussions of "school discipline" are poppycock."
Education in Delaware as well as the US will not improve until management overhead is greatly reduced and funds re-directed to where they belong, in teaching. The only way this can begin to be accomplished is to remove he unions from education policy, content and control!
you are right about unions and redirection. without discipline that will not occur. you presently have students that are not afraid of the discipline because it does not exist. a true example is a teacher at central middle school reported that she was molested several times by a male student she was tutoring. this was reported to the principle and no action was taken. an example was attempted to be made and the parent came in with a lawyer and the school was intimidated, nothing was done. the message sent to students was you do what you want and nothing happens if you get your parents and a lawyer involved. just walk in the halls if central middle school and you will see what no discipline brings. then visit other schools in capital and see if there is discipline.
who is Jim Reston??
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Toledo Tom
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In remembrance of Jim Reston, the discussions of "school discipline" are poppycock."
Education in Delaware as well as the US will not improve until management overhead is greatly reduced and funds re-directed to where they belong, in teaching. The only way this can begin to be accomplished is to remove he unions from education policy, content and control!
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tspong
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What do you think?
From the Delaware State News:
House panel eyes school discipline procedures
Task force hears ideas on reducing suspensions, changing age guidelines
By Jamie-Leigh Bissett
Delaware State News
DOVER — In what will likely be one of their last meetings before the legislative session begins in January, the House School Discipline Task Force Committee spent Wednesday discussing and narrowing down recommendations from its three subcommittees, inching one step closer to coming up with a comprehensive plan to improve school discipline procedures.
"I think our time spent working on this committee has been wonderful," said task force chair and state Rep. Michael A. Barbieri, D-Newark. "We are taking issues out of the closet and providing a forum for people to talk about what is and what is not working."
The task force is charged with studying Delaware’s laws and school district policies relating to discipline and recommending changes to the existing system.
The committee and its three subcommittees have been meeting for several months with the intention of submitting a final report on Jan. 15 to the House Education Committee.
Alternatives subcommittee
The alternatives subcommittee, chaired by Dr. Merv Daugherty, superintendent for the Red Clay School District, focused on how schools can reduce referrals and suspensions, and therefore reduce the amount of time kids spend in the court system.
Dr. Daugherty said because it is unlikely the behavior of students will change, his subcommittee looked at how districts can change how they handle discipline issues.
For instance, he said, eight out of 10 students who receive referrals get them for off-task behaviors, such as being inattentive in the classroom. Truancy is another common reason students receive referrals.
In order to reduce these type of referrals, his subcommittee recommends that schools become better in-house keepers and more proactive.
"I’m not saying be soft on problems, but perhaps we need to change our philosophy," Dr. Daugherty said. "If a student breaks the code of conduct, we’re going to punish you, but we’re going to be more proactive on the front end."
He said one way to remedy this is to provide more staff development on classroom management and instruction.
"The best discipline plan is to stick to the lesson plan and keep kids engaged," he said.
Legal subcommittee
Several recommendations were made by the legal subcommittee, chaired by Patricia Dailey Lewis, deputy attorney general.
One recommendation made by the subcommittee in an effort to cut down on court referrals is to change the age of a child who can be arrested for misdemeanor offenses in school from 9 to 12 years old, excluding those charged with weapons and some sexual offenses.
She said children 9 and under who commit misdemeanors "don’t belong" in the court system and "don’t get what they need" from it.
Ms. Lewis added that those under 9 who commit felonies, however, "will be looked at very carefully."
The subcommittee also suggested that a three-step process be put in place before children are arrested for misdemeanors — with the exception of any sex crime or weapons offenses — including a written warning, school mediation and finally arrest.
Another suggestion made would be for school districts to do their own investigation when a student is arrested outside of school before it decides on a suspension.
"There is concern that kids are getting kicked out of school based on purely probable-cause charges," Ms. Lewis said. "We’re not saying you should always let a child back in the classroom after they’ve been arrested, but we want school districts to be mindful that charges are not lodged beyond reasonable doubt."
She said the schools should conclude before they suspend the child that the safety of the students, faculty and staff would be impaired by having the offender present in the school. Additionally, Ms. Lewis said specific plans should be submitted to meet the needs of the child in cases of suspension.
Legislation subcommittee
This committee, chaired by Dan Cruce, associate secretary of education, recommended that any legislation resulting from the School Discipline Task Force should require each school district to follow common procedures when dealing with specific discipline issues.
For instance, it recommends that the Department of Education create common legal definitions of student offenses that lead to alternative placement or expulsion and that they be included in the Student Code of Conduct, as well as common due-process procedures for alternative-placement meetings and expulsion hearings.
Additionally, the subcommittee suggested that the DOE work with the Department of Safety and Homeland Security to draft a document detailing minimum responsibility requirements of school resource officers.
"We don’t want to restrict local authority, but we want to create some consistency across the board for districts and charter schools," Ms. Cruce said.
Rep. Barbieri said the next step for the task force is to create a final report listing all recommendations and distribute it to those involved so everyone can provide feedback.
He said another meeting in January is likely in order for the committee to look at the final report and then come up with some kind of legislation it can take to the House Education Committee.
Staff writer Jamie-Leigh Bissett can be reached at 741-8250 or jlhughes@newszap.com.
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